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Recently, I got into a discussion with someone who could be described as fairly woo.

Zie believes, for example, that "everything is one" is an accurate and complete description of the world, and moreover, that it is an exclusively complete one - that is, everything is just one. Consequently, zie does not understand why I can profess to be empathic and not agree with this; nor why I would have a strong desire for empirical proofs and tests of things. And moreover, zie considers me to be "closed" because of this.

I've had discussions with other people who have an opposing yet homologous worldview – that the world is just atoms and fully determined consequences of newtonian-scale physics.[1] Such folk, in a very similar way, reject such fluff as "oneness" and "enlightenment" as mere delusions or placebo effects - and similarly, consider me to be "woo" or "illogical" when I disagree.


I feel that this highlights one facet of my way of experiencing and thinking[2] about the world that is significantly different from that most people: I embrace multiplicity.

I believe (axiomatically, as best I can tell) that there are only two sensible tests that can be applied to any claim:
a) Is it consistent?, and
b) Is it useful?


Both of these claims must be evaluated within the context of some framework, some set of other beliefs, which ultimately include some small core of axioms per the usual Gödelianness. Fortunately, nearly everyone has at least one set of axioms in common - shared beliefs in, for example, what constitutes causality; what things are known to be facts about the world from prior proof; etc.

Within the domain of empirical claims, empirical proof prevails, because otherwise one faces inconsistency. To claim, for example, that a monk can drink hemlock and be unharmed is necessarily an empirical claim that requires a revision of our beliefs - either it is false, and the monk is cheating, lying, or dying; or it is true, and our knowledge of the methods by which poisoning occurs and can or cannot be resisted is mistaken.

Certainly, with any claim, we cannot know beforehand which is the case; one must always be prepared to revise theory to fit the facts. This is what empirical proof provides - facts that eliminate all the all-to-common causes of illusions, mistakes, or fraud. If the monk can only perform his trick when we are not looking at him carefully, then it implies that a more reasonable explanation is that he is a liar; if he can do so still when given pure hemlock by impartial observers yet suffer no ill effects at a dosage that would kill 99% of people, then we have to consider other explanations.

In any case, this process is that of consistency and utility: finding a theory to explain the empirical world (i.e. that of physically observable things) that best matches all of the facts known and is most usefully predictive of novel situations.


In the non-mundane world, these tests are still true.

For example, I describe certain things in terms of the flow of "energy", of the manipulation thereof, of its effects on states of consciousness. I claim that it is a useful way to frame what is happening - it provides a construct within which to treat symbolically an experience that is by its nature in many ways very abstract.

Humans are generally much better at dealing with things that they can treat symbolically. (Mushin and zen, even, I would argue to be a sort of symbol, albeit ones for a state of mind that lacks such symbollic thinking. Ironic, that.) As such, this provides utility. Whether it provides predictiveutility is moot, because we are not treating empirical claims; in the realm of the non-mundane, the experience of or belief in something is it. As such, there is little sensible difference that can be made between erstwhile placebo and treatment effects.

Is it consistent? There's the rub.

It is consistent, certainly, within its own framework. Once you accept the premises, the rest flows.

What people really mean to question is whether it is consistent with what we accept about the empirical world. The thing is, I make no claim that this "energy" is an empirical claim - I do not (unlike many others) postulate that it exists in any observable or physical sense. It is, to me, purely a level of description of a phenomenon that clearly exists subjectively.


Another example, perhaps, might serve to clarify this; I take this example from my classes at UCB with John Searle.

Searle describes himself as being neither a dualist nor a monist. To simplify considerably, Searle contends that the mind is not in "causal" relationship with the body, but rather is a different level of description of the same events - one that contains a certain qualia, which we call consciousness, that is indescribable in terms of the body.

This seems to me to be clear, though I believe he doesn't go far enough; he is still a mammalian chauvinist about consciousness. He asserts, for example, that rocks and trees are definitely not conscious - but proposes no means by which he knows this to be true.

I would say that it is my belief that we can each only know our own consciousness with any certainty; everything else is by extrapolation and empathy. I model your consciousness as like unto mine because you are (presumably) also human. It may well not actually be like mine at all; it could be that the experience you call "seeing red" is what I call "seeing orange". Despite that you agree with me on the names of any color, your experience of it is actually different.

Similarly, I cannot know whether trees or rocks or societies or planets are conscious - but I also have no way of even modeling what their consciousness might be like. As such, the strongest claim I can make is that I am incapable of understanding their consciousness, or that it doesn't exist; I don't know which is true.

"Consciousness", thus, is a framework. We can ask and test empirical claims about it; for example, if I take a psychoactive drug, does my consciousness change? If so, then we must conclude that there is a link of some kind between the biological mechanisms of drugs and the consciousness-affecting ones. It's thus both useful and (with good science) consistent.

It is, however, a framework that provides a utility that strict materialism cannot - namely, some attempt at describing something we each know to exist but cannot prove to each other.

Can it tell us what will happen when someone ingests a new kind of drug? No; "drugs" are simply outside of its descriptive scope.

Is it needed to tell us what will happen (on average) when someone is trained to associate lever-pushing with a trigger of dopamine release? No; behaviorism can handle that just fine.

Can behaviorism describe what it's like for that lever-pusher, though? No, again - and again, because "what it's like" is outside the descriptive scope of biophysics.


So I embrace a multiplicity of worldviews.

Sometimes they overlap in what things they attempt to describe and what they claim to predict, but more usually, they simply talk about different things. Things that can't be explained or dealt with one are foregrounded in another.

When they do overlap in their predictions or other testable claims, there is possibility for one or the other to win out because of consistency vs dissonance. If, for example, I held a framework that dictated that if I were to pray for it the sun would not rise tomorrow, and this did not come true, then I would need to revise that framework.

One can see this happen in people who hold religious or quasireligious beliefs (such as dowsing) whose specific claims are refuted; they either deny the validity of the disproof (in which case it can just be repeated, under a framework for proving things whose general validity they accept), or they revise their religious beliefs enough to be consistent with this new information.

People who are of the strongly anti-woo brand of skepticism see this as being not a win at all, but I would say that it's illogical to do so. All one can reasonably *do* is prove that, if their belief is true, that it has certain boundaries. With increasingly sensitive tests, one can reduce those boundaries to the point of practical irrelevance, but it's not scientific to claim that one can eliminate them. Every test necessarily has a finite power; there will always remain a gap in which gods can reside. (Whether it is appropriate to call something a 'god' that has no observable power is a question for theologians.)


The other aspect in which this comes up is understanding people.

As I implied earlier about my response to Searle, I believe that one can only understand others to the extent that one understands their worldview frameworks. If you try to model someone in another framework, you may arrive at something that is descriptively accurate (e.g. "they're just evil") but is not at all representative of their actual conscious experience (e.g. "I must aggressively defend my home against people who disobey the laws of god").

I see this all the time as the root of misunderstandings at personal and national scales; people simply lack each others' frameworks and thus fail to understand each other. To the extent that these inadequacies miss the mark, there will be problems when people do not react as we expect, emotionally or otherwise.

One need only look at any politicized issue to see this; "right to life" vs "right to choice", Israel vs Palestine, "war on terrorists who hate freedom" vs "defensive tactics against heathens". They're patently absurd as actual descriptions of what the other side believes; they are instead a war of frameworks, between people who do not share a common framework (or don't acknowledge it) and try thus to construe each other within their own framework.

This kind of misunderstanding is, to me, a tragic consequence of the prevalence of the kind of approach that I described at the outset of this: a belief in some exclusive way of viewing the world.

This is also why I try to increase the number of frameworks under which I can understand the world - I want to understand others better. (Empathy and all that, remember?)


One other consequence of this difference is that there are extremely few people who I feel truly understand me - at best most people will understand one or two of the ways in which I perceive the world.

I don't know very many effective ways of changing this, or proactively teaching someone a new worldview, save by having them experience it directly in some way. That is extremely time consuming to do, and simply impractical for anything other than a tiny scale for people with whom I already have a very high degree of mutual understanding and intimacy.


On a speculative note: if it would be possible to devise a systemic way of changing this - of teaching people, not necessarily to agree with each others' ways of perceiving the world, but simply understanding and portraying them accurately - then the world could be dramatically changed for the better.

How to do this, though? I have no idea.



[1] To my knowledge, there has never been any evidence nor any convincing proposal that subnewtonian nondeterminism - e.g. all the fancy stuff about Heisenberg and entanglement and quanta - has any effect that is probable to be noticeable at the molecular scale and up anytime in the lifetime of this planet. As such, I exclude these weirdnesses from the discussion as irrelevant to anything other than extremely sensitive lab experiments, and specifically, as being irrelevant to any known biological process or any known plausible substrate for consciousness.

This is however an emprical claim, rather than an axiomatic one. If someone can demonstrate macro-scale effects existing outside übercontrolled environments, or reasons why quantum-scale effects are more plausible than neurotransmitter-scale ones for explaining some facet of consciousness, I'll to change my mind.


[2] By "think" and "mind" I very specifically do not mean exclusively the "rational" or "intellectual" sort; I use these terms to describe, respectively, the process and entity of consciousness. They're just much simpler terms. I get irritated when woo folk tell me that I'm too "thinky" in the same way that I get irritated by the view that gender is a continuum single-dimensional; there are multiple separate correlated but independent elements that make up the whole. One can, for example, be both highly masculine and highly feminine; one can similarly be highly intellectual and highly intuitive.

As is hopefully clear by the above, I reject most metaworldviews that seek to elevate one element above the others, or to claim that they are necessarily at odds; I would say rather that only some of their undesirable correlaries are at odds, and that the things themselves are perfectly compatible.



Edit 11/19/08: I've just learned (from the excellent Witten & Frank, Data Mining, p 182) that supposedly Epicurus had a very similar stance: the principle of multiple explanations. Yay being scooped by ancient Greek philosophers.

Comments

( 33 comments — Leave a comment )
[info]dedalvs wrote:
Nov. 2nd, 2008 10:02 pm (UTC)
I don't know very many effective ways of changing this, or proactively teaching someone a new worldview, save by having them experience it directly in some way.

This is precisely the primary purpose of literature--and that is why I believe it's the highest calling.
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 2nd, 2008 10:04 pm (UTC)
Except that people only typically read things that are already within their worldviews (or only from the perspective of their worldviews)...

Ideally, yes. Perhaps it's even working for a small portion of people. But surely we can say that, systemically, it isn't doing the job?
[info]dedalvs wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 06:33 am (UTC)
You seem to suggest either that there's a lack of curiosity in general on the part of readers, or that they do far more research than I believe they do in choosing what to read. That aside, though, something ought to be "doing the job"? Is that the goal here? For if it is, no, that's not the point, per se. The goal, in reading, is to learn more about what it's like to be that person in that time (not the characters, necessarily; sometimes it's the author); what it's like to take a set of circumstances, fictional or otherwise, and filter them through someone else's lens (again, fictional or otherwise). It's a series of individual goals, on the part of readers and writers, that, collectively, may serve a purpose, but it's not like it has some sort of volition.
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 06:39 am (UTC)
I suggest only that readers selectively choose what they read, as they do all of their actions, not to disconfirm their existing beliefs.

If you can sneak in something within what they will choose to read that introduces them first-person to another belief system, then that may well work.

I'm just not convinced that this works *systemically* in the way that I mused about; if it did, then it would have worked by now.
[info]dedalvs wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 11:38 am (UTC)
I suggest only that readers selectively choose what they read, as they do all of their actions, not to disconfirm their existing beliefs.

I disagree. Perhaps some readers do do this, but this seems to be a market-based point of view influenced by the market-based American publishing system we're now stuck with. To be plain: The assumption you seem to be making here is that people will choose what to read based on the content (or that, perhaps, they'll initially choose based on content, and then, like good consumer, will purchase everything else in that product line [i.e., whatever else the author publishes, or the book jacket tells them to buy]). Thus, if Jane Gutchuckle disagrees with...I don't know, homosexuality, she won't buy vampire novels that feature overtly homosexual vampires. She may accidentally get one with them in it, but she won't have tried to do so.

This type of reader exists today, but they're not the only types of readers in America, and certainly not the only types of readers in the world. For example, I've been a big fan of 19th century Russian literature ever since I started reading War and Peace. I'll read pretty much anything that's 19th century Russian literature, even if some is better than others (The Golovlovs, for example, was terrible). In selecting literature, then, I'm not limiting myself by what I think fits into my worldview: I'm limiting myself by region, time, and availability (admittedly, when it comes to older literature, availability has a lot to do with it).

Back to the issue. If a reader chooses reading material in order "not to disconfirm their existing beliefs", then I think that there might be no one who would read both Dostoevsky and Turgenev (two very different birds). I've read both, but I didn't choose them for their content--indeed, I knew nothing about Turgenev or any of his books before I picked up Fathers and Sons. But when it comes to worldviews, going to another place and time is an easy way to find a radically different one, I would say.

But part of my goal, at least, in reading is to try to figure out how the text makes sense. There's something there--something the author is trying to say--and generally what they say falls in line with what they understand about the world--and what they understand may be very different from what I understand. Trying to figure out how it makes sense to them is partly what's so exciting!

Again, though, I'm still not following you on something "working" or not. What job is there to complete? And what do we get when it's finished?
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 03:11 pm (UTC)
I'd suggest that someone like you is very rare - not that they don't exist.

When I mean a more complete systemic solution, I mean one that will have enough critical mass to predominate our culture as a whole, rather than being the province of (ahem) intellectual elites like us.
[info]lhynard wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 04:38 am (UTC)
a good read

I particularly agree with this quote:
I believe (axiomatically, as best I can tell) that there are only two sensible tests that can be applied to any claim:
a) Is it consistent?, and
b) Is it useful?
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 04:39 am (UTC)
FWIW, do you agree that it is axiomatic? Why?

I haven't been able to come up with a good justification for that; it might actually be based on something else.
[info]lhynard wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 02:34 pm (UTC)
I'm not sure whether it is axiomic or not, but I think part of the statement has been tested in experiments. I think I've read that there is psychological evidence that our brains are wired to believe things that are consistent and useful, and if they cease being either -- and we cannot explain away the challenges -- we cease to believe.

As for whether these are the only sensible tests, that may well be axiomic. I happen to believe the statement, yet at the same time, I think that there are truths that are untestable that are still true, even though the truth and untruth may both be consistent and useful.

For example, I think that belief in an eternal God who created the universe and belief in an eternal universe without any God are each equally consistent and useful. I think that neither can be proven; I think that both are equally probable; I think that only one can be true. Personally, I believe the former, because it is more useful to me and because it is more consistent with my own personal set of experiences. I stake my life on it and genuinely believe it to be the truth and only truth, yet from a philisophical point of view, I can still agree with your statement. (Does that make sense?)
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 05:48 pm (UTC)
One problem with the opening is that it doesn't say *which* thing we cease to believe. IME research shows that it's more typical that people will hold on to their existing beliefs, and reject new ideas through some method or another, rather than revise those beliefs, because there are costs associated with such a change.


Careful with "equally probable", or you're vulnerable to a limit disproof (suppose e.g. I propose an infinite number of similar but slightly different god-theories); it is more accurate to say that their probability is equally unknown.

I would say that there are things that are untestable yet may be true. But one then has to ask whether they are relevant, or why we should care, if there is no way for us to investigate them or distinguish them from another.

For instance, in this case, it makes little difference to me whether the universe was created by a preexisting entity, or whether itself was preexisting, or whether it simply appeared one day as a fluke. This doesn't affect anything to which I have access day to day, such as my regular actions. One would need to demonstrate that, if such an entity existed, it would have other attributes that render it more relevant to our daily lives (e.g. the whole damnation thing would work).

It is interesting from a purely philosophical point which is the case; I just don't consider it particularly useful. I acknowledge though that others do, and even if they acknowledged that this god was *only* characterized by this one attribute (and has since done nothing with us whatsoever) would still desire to worship it.


FWIW, two arguments that work against your position are
a) the multiple Pascal wager - suppose that there are gods A0..Ainf, what is the expected utility of believing in Ayahweh, and how do you know?
b) the anti-Yahweh - suppose that everything you know about Yahweh is correct except one thing: he's deliberately trying to trick everyone, and everything you think gets one to heaven gets one to hell instead, and vice versa. How would one know this is the case or not? How would this affect one's decisions to engage in a particular course of action or not, vs the consequences?

[info]lhynard wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 06:47 pm (UTC)
One problem with the opening is that it doesn't say *which* thing we cease to believe. IME research shows that it's more typical that people will hold on to their existing beliefs, and reject new ideas through some method or another, rather than revise those beliefs, because there are costs associated with such a change.
very true
Careful with "equally probable", or you're vulnerable to a limit disproof (suppose e.g. I propose an infinite number of similar but slightly different god-theories); it is more accurate to say that their probability is equally unknown.
also true

I should've used better terms.
It is interesting from a purely philosophical point which is the case; I just don't consider it particularly useful. I acknowledge though that others do,...
That's why I "friended" you. I was intrigued that someone with a different world view than mine would try to understand my and other's world views. This is a very rare thing.

Whenever I tell other theistic people that a no god world view makes sense to me even though I don't believe it, they seem very confused. So many people think that their world view is the only possible self-consistent world view -- though they never would express it that way.

I do find theism a very "useful" world view for me. I'm not sure how I would "prove" this to anyone else. It is based on personal experience, which -- to go back to other elements of your post -- is not easy to communicate. I can feel sure of my own consciousness and its observations and experiences, but I cannot be sure of others', so how can I be sure that they have experienced or are capable of experiencing the same sort of things I have that solidify my believe in God?

As for the rest of your comment, I'll have to come back to it later. I'm not familiar with the "multiple" Pascal's wager; I'll have to read up on that to follow.
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 5th, 2008 06:33 am (UTC)
I suspect we're closer to each other than ou are with most Christians, because you seem to be not a theist per se so much as a classic deist.

I know that personal experience is critical to nearly all theists (and atheists even). IME, I feel free to call certain experiences sacred without any need to label them also divine; to me, acknowledgment of the beauty in the world, and even of my faith in life generally (of the same sort, pragmatically, as held by most theists) simply does not require any god, and indeed I feel is diminished by such an attribution. (Because, e.g. I feel it diminishes our sense of ability and responsibility to affect such things, both as a conscious exercise in perception-changing and as a matter of changing the world around us.)

As such, I find that nearly all experiences others have described as being 'conversion experiences' etc. are ones where I could see nearly exactly the same experience, except without the god-attribution.

I somewhat suspect that this attributional issue itself is crucial, and probably neurologically detectable & manipulable.


Multiple Pascal's wager isn't TTBOMK a standard term, just my own intuitive one. Take a standard Pascal's (god vs no-god) and expand it to the actual domain of possibilities (i.e. the complete set of subsets of mutually compatible gods or lacks thereof). Mind that one has to include non-attested gods, like the anti-Yahweh I mentioned earlier (and anti-Thor, and anti-FSM, etc), and that of course this is an infinite set.

How does this change the odds? Clearly IMO it reduces them to "shrug". :-P
[info]lhynard wrote:
Nov. 26th, 2008 04:58 pm (UTC)
By the way, I had a blast chatting with you on IM the other day -- most fun I've had IMing in a long while.
I suspect we're closer to each other than [y]ou are with most Christians, because you seem to be not a theist per se so much as a classic deist.
Well, I do consider myself a theist, but I don't think one can "get to" theism without having experiencial knowledge -- and even then, as you say here, most of the time such experiences are such that one "could see nearly exactly the same experience, except without the god-attribution."

Even so, having considered those possibilities, I personally feel I've seen the work of a "person" in my life.
I feel it diminishes our sense of ability and responsibility to affect such things, both as a conscious exercise in perception-changing and as a matter of changing the world around us.
an interesting point

I agree that this is a problem with how many Christians think about / treat the world, but I don't think it is a necessary response to a theistic world view.

There is a really good Biblical scholar of today named N.T. Wright. You may be aware of him as he has been making lots of headlines with his "non-traditional" views on "heaven". He says that the Christian idea of "heaven" is in fact unBiblical (and I would agree). He argues that a "truly Biblical" world view would lead to the desire and action of "changing the world around us," as you say.

anyhow...
I somewhat suspect that this attributional issue itself is... probably neurologically detectable & manipulable.
True, and they have shown this is the case with lab experiments (the "god spot", etc.). Even so, I don't see how a god could not use a neurological system to "speak to us".

For example, I'd wager that someday that we would be able to mess with people's brains such that they see things that aren't real. That doesn't mean that everything they ever have seen was not real.
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 26th, 2008 09:03 pm (UTC)
I quite enjoyed it also.

In what way do you feel you've seen the work of a 'person' in your life, exactly? How do you distinguish this from simply the expected about of abnormal events combined with human paredoliac tendencies?

AFAICT Phelpsian calvinism is completely compliant with the letter of Biblical edict, and completely opposed to the 'change the world around you' ideal you espouse. That, to me, at the least says that this ideal is brought in by the people in question from some other source - that it is not unambiguously inherent to the text.

We already can mess with brains so they see things that aren't real; it's called LSD. ;-)

I would agree that, if a god exists, they could use whatever to speak to us. But I have yet to see any evidence for which that is the simplest consistent explanation. (I agree that it may *be* consistent, though.)

P.S. Please use italics or > for quotes; indent is confusing here.
[info]callianassa wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 05:13 am (UTC)
Do you apply more standards than those of usefulness and consistency to claims you plan on adopting yourself? (Your writing seems to suggest an answer, but I'm unsure enough to ask.)
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 05:16 am (UTC)
I don't know that there are any others that are sensible.

Some frameworks I find unuseful to think within except to model others (for example, the framework of literal good and evil existing in a Great War, or as personality traits) - but nevertheless these should be adopted for that purpose alone at the least.

Perhaps a more useful answer is, I have a considerable amount of stuff with which something novel needs to be consistent - but I am open to either consequence of that.

If you have something specific in mind I'd be able to answer better.
[info]callianassa wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 05:27 am (UTC)
Your comment about it needing to be consistent with what you've already got (as opposed to just internally consistent, etc.) clarifies.

The original thing I was thinking of was that you seem to have certain very consistent attitudes and values that are not encompassed by those two statements.
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 05:34 am (UTC)
Internal consistency is a philosophical stance as to what makes for a sensible worldview. (If it's not internally consistent, then the dissonance will force it to change.)

Inter-consistency is a meta-worldview issue; required to hold multiple ones actively. There are gray boundaries, though (Necker-cubely) and that interconsistency is something I believe one must suspend when dealing with *modeling* a worldview sufficiently well as to understand others.

FWIW, I accept that some of my beliefs are in conflict when taken as absolutes; I don't, so perhaps that is a possible 'inconsistency' that might come up that I don't hold to be one really.
[info]graudrakon wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 07:21 am (UTC)
a few random thoughts and opinions as I read

0. Zie's belief seems analogues to believing that coins don't have sides. thought obviously false it does have it's uses, believing that the coin we call earth has sides means we also have to accept that the different sides of one thing are murdering, raping and pointing nuclear missile at each other. His closed mind may be what is keeping him sane, just as the people murdering raping and pointing nuclear missiles at each other have to believe that they are not connected at all to stay sane.

1. consistent and usable is a good summing up of the scientific method, that of the simplest explanation that fits all parameters and is reproducible. and I have noticed that people who believe in the scientific method tend to lean towards woo, if not out right barmy these days.

2. "I would say that it is my belief that we can each only know our own consciousness with any certainty"

I disagree that our own consciousness is any easier to know than another persons

3. understanding people
The drive in humanity to not think about other peoples frame of reference; to simply classify them away as evil, as stupid, as 'them' is that these people favor the usable side of the scientific method over the consistent. To many developing cultures understanding can be a waist of resources better spent on survival.

4. a system of showing people a different way of thinking: seems like the basis of every religion

5. on the irrelevance of quantum physics, i dont disagree, but I think you might be interested in this read. http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~sai/herbert.htm
I think its mentioned 3/4 of the way down so if it bores you just search for the phrase "quantum metaphone" to get to the right part of the conversation.

Thanks for another interesting read
=D
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 08:02 am (UTC)
"and I have noticed that people who believe in the scientific method tend to lean towards woo, if not out right barmy these days." - explain?

"I disagree that our own consciousness is any easier to know than another persons" - why? Do you disagree with the traditional "cogito ergo sum", founded on the belief that one can only *really* know that oneself is conscious?

"The drive in humanity to not think about other peoples frame of reference; to simply classify them away as evil, as stupid, as 'them' is that these people favor the usable side of the scientific method over the consistent." - I would characterize this more as a matter of avoiding thoughts that would cause dissonance; if, for example, one recognizes that one's mortal enemies may have sane reasons for their behavior, then it puts one in a difficult position.

"To many developing cultures understanding can be a waist of resources better spent on survival." - This smacks a bit of colonialism to me. Could you justify this, and why it has something to do with "developing" cultures?

"a system of showing people a different way of thinking: seems like the basis of every religion" - Quite the opposite, IMO. Religions tend to promote their own way of thinking in exclusion, and actively cast others as heathens if they do not agree (and that one must think of them *as* heathens, else be a sinner oneself).

It is only extremely liberal psuedo-religions that actually hold any doctrinal claim to respecting others' beliefs as alternate and equally valid frameworks.


Re. the article, I note some fallacies:

* Claiming that quantum entanglement means that *everything* is connected; TTBOMK it only claims that *two quarks* can become entangled under very special and easily broken circumstances, not that everything is always connected with everything else.

* Claiming that this entanglement has any observable effects at macroscopic scales, such as on brains and consciosnesses, with zero proof.

In re. the 'metaphone', this seems to be a classic example of paredolia. Given the construction implied, and the long times they waited for even a hint of anything intelligible, and how loose the criterion was for what might qualify, it is not merely probable but a dead *certainty* that eventually they would find one, even though the source be purely random.

One would need a much better test than that to prove what he implies it proves; I saw no cogent support for these "discarnates" he hypothesizes.


On a neuroscience note, I think his idea of trying to locate a particular place in the brain where consciousness resides is absurd; it seems relatively clear to me that consciousness is tied to / arises from / whatever the entire thing, as some sort of pattern of activation. But that gets into more technical issues than is probably appropriate here.
[info]graudrakon wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 09:45 am (UTC)
"and I have noticed that people who believe in the scientific method tend to lean towards woo, if not out right barmy these days."

my observations have a (granted) small sampling of society, but the only people I hear speaking of the scientific method hold to theories that are not normally considered scientific. For example I hold many "superstitious" theories based on the fact that I experience them as real and have no other signs of delusion or insanity. I hold that ignoring experiences or data because they don't fit the theory is not scientific. I have read similar sentiments from some pagan/new age/"woo" authors such as Raven Kaldera.

Cogito Ergo Sum:
Knowing that oneself is conscious and knowing what that consciousness is are two different things. As knowing what a rock is and know what type of rock it is are two different things. The part of our mind that is an observer does not make up a large part of the total. I believe that our view of our own minds is only a little better (and in some ways worse) than our view of another. Most of our mind is still un-conscious.

"developing cultures" I was using terms without thinking about defining them well even to myself. By developing I meant those that are still struggling or in conflict with other cultures. not limited to a part of the world, race, or economic level but any culture that is still concerned with winning against another culture. (I was counting the U.S.s 'leftwing' and 'rightwing' cultures in this group along with ancient tribes and early civilizations)

""a system of showing people a different way of thinking: seems like the basis of every religion" - Quite the opposite, IMO. Religions tend to promote their own way of thinking in exclusion, and actively cast others as heathens if they do not agree (and that one must think of them *as* heathens, else be a sinner oneself)."

that was my bleak point. Buddha, Jesus, Mohamed, Zoroastar (as examples since they are the only religious founders that come to mind) all taught radically new way of viewing the world, by doing that he showed that their was many ways and many views. But any ground breaking becomes a new foundation a generation later.

yah, the story is chalk full of pseudoscience, but I thought it was still quite interesting both from a storytelling point of view and as a new way of thinking about thinking.

I actually have a question on your neuroscience note but its to late at night for me to word it, I'll try again tomorrow.
[info]vvvexation wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 10:54 pm (UTC)
the only people I hear speaking of the scientific method hold to theories that are not normally considered scientific.

I would guess that's because only people whose beliefs are considered unscientific feel they have to cite the scientific method to demonstrate that they're not. People doing "hard science" don't have to talk about the scientific method because everybody already knows and believes they're using it.
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 11:03 pm (UTC)
Irony FTW.
[info]lhynard wrote:
Nov. 3rd, 2008 11:41 pm (UTC)
I definitely agree that those "whose beliefs are considered unscientific" -- I will use the term "pseudoscientists" -- do feel the need to cite the method to defend themselves.

But I think one must be careful in assuming that "hard scientists" -- such as myself -- automatically know the method and/or use it properly. On the contrary, I think we are even more likely to misuse the method, because we assume, "We are scientists; of course we are using the scientific method; of course, we are doing real science. Don't talk to us about the method!"

This is elitism really; and it is very prevalent in the sciences today. Every scientist really ought to check his or her work to ensure it is good scientifically.

Unfortunately, a lot of crap is published as science in the journals today, largely in part due to prestige and science politics and such things. I'm often shocked at how papers slip past the peer review process that are nothing but untested hypotheses or experiments lacking proper positive and/or negative controls.

This only gives the pseudoscientists more arguing points.
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 12:09 am (UTC)
FWIW, what's your scope of research & association?
[info]lhynard wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 12:20 am (UTC)
I'm a graduate student in chemistry, particularly bioorganic chemistry at Johns Hopkins University. I do research in the biosynthesis of antibiotics, mostly chemical synthesis of analogs and computer modeling of enzymes in the pathway.
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 01:31 am (UTC)
Neato. Could you elaborate on your research? (I'm a neuro geek, this relates. :-P)
[info]lhynard wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 04:39 pm (UTC)
I tried to send you a private message, but you seem to have such things blocked.
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 5th, 2008 06:24 am (UTC)
Yeah, 'cause I hate LJ's pm system. Just IM or email me instead.
[info]graudrakon wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 12:37 am (UTC)
question: since you mentioned that Searl does not go far enough to include rocks and trees as conscious I surmise that you hold to the belief that all things have some form of consciousness (albiet possibly very alien to ours).

Do you think that a part of a thing has consciousness (say for example my heart, or a bridges cornerstone) and if so do you think that that consciousness is itself part of the wholes consciousness?
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 01:30 am (UTC)
I hold no such belief. Indeed, my point is that one *cannot know*.

To be precise, my stance is that either of these two is true:
a) they have consciousness, and I am incapable of understanding it; or
b) they do not have consciousness.

I don't know of any possible way to find out which is the case, so consider me strong agnostic on it.

I hold that this same question applies to *any* thing that is not of the sort that we can empathize with (i.e. other mammals, generally); so yes, it includes your heart, a cornerstone, and for that matter supersets also like the set of people in America, or the earth as a whole. (There is at least one theory of god I know of that construes god as the ultimate superset, i.e. the consciousness of the universe itself, as we are each the consciousness of the set of our neurons etc.)

I don't believe that it is sensical to talk about part/whole relationships in this way; if my heart (or society) is conscious or no, that's as may be, but it doesn't impact *my* consciousness. They're at different levels of description.

Mind that it is a *useful* and *consistent* level of description - one can quite productively talk about crowd and even national psychology. Yet these don't at all describe the qualia for a particular individual within that crowd, only their behavior.

As I consider behavior to be entirely predetermined for reasons of physics, this doesn't bother me. (I don't believe "free will" is a sensical thing. Free of what?)
[info]fusijui wrote:
Nov. 4th, 2008 03:49 pm (UTC)
How about some empathy and using a cut tag? :)
[info]saizai wrote:
Nov. 5th, 2008 06:23 am (UTC)
Done.
( 33 comments — Leave a comment )

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